Catchup
Notes on the first H=N community discord voice channel
Saturday, Nov 13, 16h UTC
Moderated by Mumu_thestan / Moonhmz
Notes by acrwrs (I hope I get all the names right > a)
Mumu starts by making an introduction of on how we got where we are now.
Mumu:
Let me summarize what happened: if you don’t already know, Rafael decided to shut down the Hic et Nunc website. But since components are open source it’s possible to clone the site - all nfts are safe, pinned, on the blockchain, by the community and by club nft (and others).
So, the nfts are safe, and can be found in your wallets, and can still be traded on all the clone sites that are running, and via community-built tool sites.
This Discord was started as a way to bring together Hic et Nunc community members, outside of just the Hicathon people, but as an outreach to H=N as a whole, inspired by the efforts that have been done in the Hicathon. (https://www.hicathon.xyz/ > a)
We want to work towards building a community with a DAO, towards a new H=N version, with the ideas developed during the Hicathon, and with new suggestions the community sees fit.
But what makes the H=N community the H=N community? It’s artist driven, by and for the community, and not by any entity.
The general consensus is to form a DAO, as inclusive as possible, with no leaders. The mods here are only mods and admins for Discord, to try to keep the discussion so transparent as possible, and have them in the public channels.
Does anyone have any thoughts?
Mumu asks because some people voted on the Discord that they wanted to speak.
Intervention: Someone asks if the talk is recorded (yes - didn’t get by whom > a).
Mumu is scrolling through people who want to speak, but nobody’s responding of the community members who noted down that they wanted to speak.
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Continues with the core questions.
Do you want to continue with this community and in what shape or form?
TEIOBE (username unclear, not responding?) Or anyone else?
Intervention: Someone’s trolling with background audio.
Espinosa:
Observation: I see there are a lot of people here, but at the same time not a lot of people here, given the amount of creators on H=N that want to continue, based on events.
So what could happen: a DAO takes over, either new contract, what are the technical challenges. I’m interested in a multitude of perspectives. Not participated super deeply in H=N before. There may be an opportunity, in this case someone like DNS steps in, but I’m not sure what the motivations are.
Victor Griers:
Asks if Rafael is here (but mistook an announcement of Mumu for another Rafael).
Follows up with a question about the money, and where it goes to (Rafael). This is a subject to change, the contract (still paying out 2,5% to Rafael).
Mumu:
All the clones are a temporary immediate solution. So new input is needed there.
Intervention: a technical note: unmuting everyone because of background noises. People can unmute when speaking.
Mumu goes through the names of people who mentioned they wanted to talk. Some people are not here. Fraguada, Infinite, and others. Meanwhile, Infinite is trying to enable mic (as noted on voice text channel).
Infinite:
Here’s Marc (infinite). I just want to say in I’m in favour to move forward with the DAO/community initiative. At the moment one particular group coming in, is setting themselves up as a leader, which is not in the spirit of H=N. We should move forward to a more DAO/Hicathon structure.
There’s a lot of upheaval and trauma, people sniping at each-other in the chat. It’s going to take a little bit of time for people to process and to come together. This is much better as a community, and not with a “Silicon Valley” approach like, “I’m gonna fix this”.
Mumu:
Asks if anyone else feels differently.
Denscimonk:
Agrees: I feels the same. The thing is - we have to be faster in decisions, to counter Silicon Valley. We need to set up a domain, to keep up our agenda. We’re now sharing 5 links while we’re discussing what’s possible or not, while the ‘other side’ is pushing the agenda.
At least get a domain and share this. Another thing is about having narrative on Twitter. (I think this refers to DNS getting his narrative out on twitter spaces simultaneously > a)
We have to be faster and more focused. And then we can decided what we want. We can prepare (? inaudible > a). It would just be good to have something set up instead of sinking into discussions.
Mumu:
We’ve heard from some people not feeling confident or trust towards the DNS team.
Alex (ajmoon):
Talks about a Twitter poll (or another poll, I missed part of this > a), consisting of a list of mentions with Hicathon having no mentions. (I think it’s about name recognition between objkt.com and more > a).
I’m new to H=N, new to NFTs, and new to crypto. The last 48 hours, the ‘cool’ - I saw Rafael as ‘cool’ - face has disappeared. DNS stepped up in hours, there was a plan: and it was not just about the devs, but also involved the emotional labour.
A second organisation comes in (Hicathon is meant, probably. And now it moves into a repetition of the DNS discussion on Discord earlier, followed by a recommendation of DNS/hicetnunc.art > a).
Mumu:
Can I ask you something: what attracted you to H=N, except that Rafael seemed like a cool guy?
Alex (ajmoon):
I started out on Open Sea, but Tezos was cheaper, and then there’s the clean nfts part. I’d seen H=N on twitter. The public face was that the creators were serious about the art; and the spaces were not alienating people. Right now I’m wondering if nfts are for me. If there’s so much fighting, then not, but earlier, at H=N, a lot of good faith was seen.
Mumu:
Can I ask you another question: what are your feelings about decentralisation?
Alex:
I’m doing this for the art, for the videos…
(interrupted)
So I’m a software engineer, and not convinced NFT’s or crypto are going to change the world. I was a musician for a while. So I see it as a way to legitimately send money to people you support: a right to sent money as support, instead of piracy. But I like hierarchy, and that decisive action is taken when it’s needed.
Felix FLX:
I’ve been collecting a lot on H=N and am part of the top 10 collectors. I recognize many of you guys. From my perspective, I’ve been involved with H=N for 5 months, spending a lot of time and effort to advocate H=N in multiple languages (China, included). I read several press releases, and there are hurt feelings after H=N went, but then there’s 12 hours of fighting without making progress. The longer the debate, the more users are gone, off to objkt.com and such.
The community lab, smart contracts, or another, forked contract: artists don’t really care, as long as they sell art to the right collectors. Who’s going to be making the 2,5 percent doesn’t matter that much, set it to 0 to end the trust issues for the time being.
I’m also a hDAO supporter, so I wanted to build his position, to see a lot of governance value. But there was no voting power (ever) established; my hDAO will be a very small vector for the vote, despite meaningful stake. So how do I get my voice out there? So what’s the aim of having governance?
Have a consensus on where to go soon, because artists consider to go to other places if we don’t move fast. DNS may be ‘Silicon Valley’, or from other ‘emerging markets’, but do act fast, to at least get some credit. Talk to them (DNS > a), ask them to get the cut to zero, whatever.
acrwrs:
As an artist, I’d like to say something too: we need a bit of time, because we want to be careful where my art goes? Continuity is very important, but the speed is hindering careful consideration. DNS felt invasive in the discussion. Just to say there are other artist’s PoVs. (as I, as speaker, couldn’t take notes, this is not complete > a)
Mumu:
There are reservations of a part of the Discord - of parts of the community - towards hicetnunc.art, which origins from them to promote it as a continuation of H=N. They forked the smart contract while trying to get people to join them ‘instead’ of joining us. There on the other hand are opportunities to work together, since they’re running a mirror with a trusted member of the community.
Anyone else?
FLX:
Hicathon team can be working together with DNS on a semi-official community contract.
Mumu:
DNS and members in the Discord tried to get that discussion going there, but at the moment the groups don’t seem to agree on things. It’s a hot topic: DNS, but we’re not just talking about that.
Bastianmorese:
DNS is (? inaudible > a) (…) add regarding feedbacks. (H=N was/is) awesome for ‘us’, how people see differently. We have to increase confidence for the people, and vote together. Regarding what DNS is promising today, they need to increase the confidence.
Mumu:
You mean that they’re doing expert marketing and we’re not doing marketing that well? Good point.
Thomash:
Puts a suggestion for a domain-name (any) to forward from DNS for a couple of months, temporarily, until we figure things out.
Bastianmorese:
But it’s just an interface. And still the same contract.
Intervention: a question from unknown about the distribution of the fee.
Mumu:
This is more about exploring: there are ideas and discussions in the Discord, so this is a bit of a too big discussion in this meeting. Put suggestions on the matter please into ideas channel.
FLX:
From a collector’s perspective, Javier (@jagracar) has all these data points on Twitter. From that perspective, I want to see a community to help each other, not to be divided. Unite the community.
Also: about hDAO, this works to capture the growth on the platform, but it’s OK for not sharing the profits, because of regulatory reasons. A governance token should be used as a governance token. There may be a role for hDAO for a community driven market place where it’s supportive for more use cases, and has more voting power. Maybe the top 3 hDAO, I’m a top 10 collector (inaudible > a )
Raf had his own attitude, but in a more decentralised setting, in going forward, hDAO should have a role in the community governance.
Mumu:
There are concerns about distributions of DAO, but join in on the DAO channel for that. There’s a concern are that you’re becoming disadvantaged if you don’t have enough hDAO. That it means that you’re not involved enough and not invested enough. It’s a heavier conversation to have, and it’s interesting to see as a community to see what happens as a whole.
FLX (? > a)
Centralisations is an issue for any token distribution. There are many ways to level the playground, quadratic voting (anti-whale), curbs, and other ways to elevate the shareholders.
hDAO at the moment give early adopters some governance power, but the hDAO (system > a) has never been fulfilled with Rafael.
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Mumu:
Next topic: Core team.
Should we have leaders? Or have representatives to make sure communities are involved in the discussions. What we don’t want to happen is for the vision to provide alternative economies helping underrepresented people to disappear. This is not just about the perspectives of the Northern hemisphere and whales and all that.
The discord is trying to have reps from communities, groups, collectives, hen users, to join the discussions in order to stay/become inclusive. See also the channel for nominations for representatives. You can put nominations in there, and try to include them in discussions in conversations. In the channel we’re trying to discuss how to uplift underrepresented groups of people.
Anyone wants to speak?
Pixelfool:
Thanks for the talk. One thing:
Intervention: Zai’s mike is open: we hear talk of H=N drama in the background.
Pixelfool continues:
I’ve been in discussions trying to point new people to people who’ve been in the space longer. It’s nice to make clear that the Hicathon was not done by ‘core people’. If you were not there: it was a gigantic event, which was communicated on Discord, Twitter, everywhere. When we refer to Mumu, Diane, Mical of Vertical Crypto, anyone, we’re talking about people who have already been talking to a lot of people in the past.
There have been a lot of conversations. Part of our mission to try to take the conversation out of discord, because if we don’t do that the narrative is only for members, and Twitter should be the space where it can reach more audience. For those here and listening, Hicathon was so much bigger than the Discord. It was a big community effort.
Make sure that those not here know that it was a big thing, and everything now discussed was founded there.
AJ moon:
I have a question about what the mission of H=N is. As a white male, straight, and English speaking, I certainly didn’t join H=N with a political mission.
Pixelfool:
What is the end, what is the mission? Mumu was a big part of it. It’s a continuous community effort to define.
Mumu agrees:
This is only the first meeting. We don’t have all the answers yet, of course we’re figuring things out together. Efforts were put in place, but new people passionate about H=N have joined since then.
This is why its important to have representatives. If anyone feels underrepresented they can nominate and be part of the discussion. For myself: I don’t want to be seen as the token diverse person, a lot of people are here and welcome from all walks of life, and we try to represent them all.
Any suggestions can be put in the channel.
kaiC:
Hicetnunc is to represent diversity and inclusion in the community in the front- or backend?
Koshino:
I was on the Hic et Nunc team when it was still there. Working with this team, we’re trying to make a movement like (? inaudible > a), pushing for the global south from the beginning. We made some events, like teaching people to use Hic et Nunc. People teach each-other how to use Hic et Nunc. It helped a lot of artists, everybody knows the stories.
kaiC:
Exposure? it is there? (not sure if I understood correctly > a)
Koshino:
About the votes, a good question. (I don’t completely understand > a).
Drone Node:
Something about the community to H=N, I think we have to keep this in mind, since I entered, separate between the south and the north. There are a few platforms who entered here (? > a). It has attracted people from all over the world, and the Tezos is now being appreciated, there are many more people in the market.
Previous conversations were sometimes about people who want to raise the price of Tezos. But you want it to be different as a compensation for more Northern accessible platforms such as Patreon.
We will always suspect there’ll come a reasonable consensus, relatively fast but with confidence (trust? > a). I’m here as an artist and I believe in an NFT market for independent art, good art, that makes me not to share art I don’t want to share. H=N was always open for people who make good art.
Mumu:
How hen has connected and changed lives and crucially not just for the northern hemisphere, is why it was special. Having a group or startup from the West coming in with ‘Hey, here’s the solution’, looks like it becomes a ‘saviour’, and is met with some hostility.
Some people even use the word colonisation. These are heavy topics. H=N was unique not just because it was a cool platform, and not just because of the art, because people could choose for other commercial platforms, since there are a lot of them.
The spirit and mission of H=N and Rafael, despite all its flaws, the idea was there. We’re trying to keep that spirit alive with this iteration.
acrwrs:
(I talked but I’m not entirely sure what I said anymore > a)
Bob Burnquist:
I got in through Koshino, just a month ago, and found a great spirit about H=N. As one of the missions in Brazil, an institute, a foundation, a certain education on how to change people’s lives, NFT space is such a unique opportunity: here and now, it’s just a moment of calling for everyone.
Here and now, and the Brazilian Art Foundation, go through workshops with NFTs with Koshino, whether on H=N or whatever, but Tezos is such a unique place, so inclusive. Just the movement itself. It seems to them to connect to people, to learn this new economy. To make a living. Change a life and make opportunities. Brazil tends to be very social, people helping the people, and social programs can be done everywhere. It’s still an opportunity the spirit of H=N: come in, learn.
The social aspect of it, regarding what ends up happening, so many people that can learn of it, and Hic et Nunc felt like a community. I appreciate everyone and I’d be helping in any way I can.
Mumu:
Thank you. Anyone else?
Doppelben:
H=N is the community. And all stand out. When all the whales came out for instance, that was a cool moment for H=N. I wonder, we know we can be a very strong community, but a lot of people from ETH say that the art and the community is great, but it’s a pain in the ass to use.
I wonder whether the teams or Rafael wanted to keep it like that: was it a cost issue? About the percentage going to the team, but still the platform was not working at its best. Sorry for ‘a rain of thoughts’.
Mumu:
I don’t think we have the answers to that right now.
Doppelben:
These are things to consider, just to put it out there. And there should be a representative team from all over the world. I don’t know of people who are proposed as a team. I don’t know nothing about coding and can’t be involved that way.
Mumu: read message from Harvey Moon:
Watching from a distance from a while, joining because of DAO, and seeing an opportunity for a DAO platform, using klimadao as example. To create this community you need to be clear on who’s steering it. (https://www.klimadao.finance/ > a)
Mumu:
Valid question! We’re trying to discuss that. The DAO has some other interest as well (tokens), but it’s one of the things we’re trying to work with on the nominations channel.
Mumu:
I do not want it to be “Here are your leaders follow them.” It’s important to nominate the right people who’re involved in this. Anyone wants to chime in?
Jeff Pross:
What are the necessary steps for devs to evolve this? This communication is about creatives and equality, the DNS side is about technical development.
Mumu:
There are devs here. More devs are welcome. There’s a dev channel. Dive into the dev discussion.
Jeff:
I’m worried about having a conversation that’s abstract with the future of H=N staying the same. Good point about speed with which to operate from a DAO perspective and avoid losing the space.
Micah:
I’m a developer, rather new, following decentralisation outside of blockchain; it’s exciting to see what happens when people come together. What drew people here, why people love to connect through technology. Sales are going to be impacted, but as a distributed tech hacker, there are a lot of exciting possibilities as an extension of the ideas, make everything even more decentralised. Hope that people find some faith and hope amidst the fear.
Pom:
I was on hen, I joined nine months ago, and it was scary and off-putting, but the strong point was the community. The artist community was the strongest point, so move along as much as a decentralised nation as possible. H=N really makes ‘products’, we act through the website, through the tools and the art, and then there’s the environmental side. This is the direction to move forward in.
Vncnt:
People are concerned about economics and politics, which ties into the same issues: good politics lead to good economics, which explains what’s at stake - ‘Silicon Valley’ versus decentralised. I wouldn’t rush governance, but give power in the most diverse and inclusive way.
Mumu:
Trying to educate the general public is important, so they know they should be wary of ‘Sillicon Valley’ types. We can’t tweet that out yet from the H=N community Twitter, whether we reach a consensus or from the personal account, but it is an important thing to know - especially for newcomers - that there is a little bit of a disconnect between people who’ve been around and had time to grow into the ecosystem. They are just scared with all the uncertainty. Communication why all these things here is important but not yet from the community Twitter.
Encourage people to educate from their personal accounts.
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The IP of HEN belongs to Rafael, there are people with a sentimental connection to the name of H=N, how do we feel about the name? Speak up?
itsaherring:
I have mixed feelings, it seems it’s the community versus Rafs project. Maybe we can use some variation on H=N. Whatever happens here is going to be a child of Hic et Nunc, and there will be other children of Hic et Nunc. H=N is not the only player anymore, and H=N doesn’t have to be the nr. 1 place. We need to be democratic, and thoughtful. Governance is first; we need to make decisions, an not by the loudest voice.
Maybe the communities are part of that. We need a few different prompts.
Sableraph:
I remember the response Raf had about the appropriation of the word objkt. Just try to imagine for us to take his IP into another direction, if you extrapolate from the objkt.com response, I feel uneasy with the idea of keeping or using it. Except when it’s handed over by Rafael himself.
Mical:
Maybe call it HEN, what call people call it anyway. Just a suggestion.
Sableraph:
HEN is still Hic et Nunc, right?
Moon (can’t find name > a)
A new name is essentially a new platform. It’s like having Rafael’s IP versus having a platform. If the community could sponsor any community effort in the Tezos community. Co-sponsor .art (?) People could be educated about global south, etcetera (? sorry, couldn’t make heads nor tail of it > a)
Masterbinder (richard?):
I’m talking from an upstate New York perspective. I’m seeing several platforms taking the code, but while the managers are moving from one name to many names, all things that are minted will stay on the blockchain. Already there are larger entities, so maybe are we moving into a bigger system where are many names?
Mical:
Are the devs at the moment working towards a new platform at the moment?
Mumu:
We already have a mirror up and running.
Mical Noelson:
Are devs talking about building something?
Mumu:
The mirror is up, but you have to understand it’s only a day? Any developers here?
Denscimonk:
People are in shock, and there are developers, and first people are still in after-shock.
Mumu:
We should reassure everyone who is worried this is all talk: but we have all devs minus Rafael of hen here, we have people with smart contracts here. (? > a)
Mumu:
I need to wrap up. It’s 01:15 here and I’ve been up since 5 AM.
We’ve asked a lot of questions, we hope moving forward to be more productive and more constructive discussions within this discord, if there’s anyone worried, please communicate: if you have feelings about spreading the word about why community efforts are so important.
That’s it for me.
Eggs takes over. The talk channel stays open.
Eggs: we’re talking about the community.
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acrwrs also signing out.